I have really enjoyed both Innovative Teacher articles.
Even if I don't have the time and space in my life to explore them all, it's very interesting and encouraging to know they're out there. These articles represent many years of you filtering through massive amounts of information. So thanks for sharing with us.
Some random thoughts from your Daniel Ingram piece:
Warning, I don't know any more about him than what you've written here (but will do some further reading for sure).
The mention of autism is very interesting to me. He seems like an almost shamanic figure. If you look at some of the features presented by autism, they sort of line up with what you'd expect from a shaman. Living outside the culture, next level knowledge about something very particular, unique sensory processing, and probably a few more :)
Maybe you could expand on this, because I don't know: have there been as many reformers in Buddhism as say Christianity? Has there ever been a Buddhist reformation or Vatican 2.0? If not, any theories as to why?
This is connected with your point about debate. When someone is fully set into a belief system (or you could even call it an architype) they are not interested in healthy debate. As you suggest, they show hostility toward other views which serves to strengthen their belief. Their anger hides their vulnerability. Like a cognitive bias.
Would it be somewhat the case that claiming to be an arhant is like claiming divinity? I can see people in the west having a difficult time understanding that concept, but wouldn't people in the east understand the claim quite differently? Do we as humans ultimately need devine or transcendent role models? We almost need to strive towards the impossible. I can see arguments from both sides. Point taken that it might be traditionalists who struggle with it the most. A lot of complex emotions involved for them. Moving past the guru model seems connected here too. Maybe the issue is that we only divinize people who have been long dead :) We can then idealize them.
You mention the value of body awareness for us westerners. Is that basically the same thing as the Mahasi method? I guess this is connected with your interest in a Goenka retreat?
I like the comment from Daniel about focusing more on practice and less on psychology (or other potential distractions). I could use that advice :)
The innovate teachers hit a sweet spot for me because:
-I survived an evangelical Christian upbringing, with years of subsequent deprogramming, so I'm leery of belief systems, dogma, etc. So I love how Shinzen is mystical or Daniel is pragmatic.
-I struggle with languages such as Pali/Sanskrit, so Shinzen and Daniel are both refreshing that way.
-I can't escape that fact that I'm a westerner (the way I escaped my upbringing), despite my concerns with the west, so bridging the best of the east and the west seems necessary for me to grow.
Jude you're so niche! Thanks for creating this space :) I hope it continues to grow :)
OK so first off you're spot on with the shamanic thing. I didn't put it in the article, but Ingram has actually done a few discussions on "powers" that are attained through meditation, like psychic stuff, but also on Magick, which is basically the western version of shamanism. He talks about putting on special ceremonial outfits and casting spells. Interesting stuff!
I'm no expert on Buddhist history but yes there have been countless reformers. The three main iterations are Therevada (study and technical knowledge), Mahayana (living and doing in the world), and Vajrayana (transmuting experience, making everything a practice). They were each reactions to and reformations of where previous traditions became stagnant.
But even within these three huge schools there are countless other schools and reformations. There are 4 schools of Tibetan Buddhism, but it just started as one (Nygma). There's Soto and Rinzai Zen, both with many subsects...
As for claiming Arhantship is like claiming divinity... yes in a way for sure (in the traditionalist context). There are many traditional Buddhist teachers who are recognized as awakened and are revered as if they are living Buddhas or living divine beings. People will line up to get blessed by them, and they will sometimes sit on thrones.
Ingram is not sitting on a throne and no one is lining up to be blessed by him. So yes it's a very different paradigm and I can see why it set people off. Ingram is saying hey this isn't anything divine, I'm a normal guy who did this. And that is very different paradigm, it brings all the revered teachers down to a "normal" level, and challenges those who would find comfort in their connection to such teachers (like a religious mindset).
I'm honestly not sure to what extent people are looked at divinely in Theravada Buddhism, but in Tibetan Buddhism it's very palpable and not just for those who've passed, many living Lamas are said to be incarnations of divine beings.
The Mahasi method is about noting sensory experience, including body awareness but not making a special focus on it. Goenka also came from Burmese Buddhism but ended up emphasizing body awareness.
And I appreciate your comment! A lot of people have religious trauma (it's almost a trending term now) in our culture. I'm one of the few that doesn't have it as my parents really didn't put any dogma or expectations on us kids. They introduced us to Buddhist ideas that we inevitably believed in, but they were sure it say "this is what the Buddhists believe but it's hard to know".
Glad you're enjoying this series as I love to share this stuff and only have a handful of friends that have any interest in it. A lot more to come, many that are very different than Ingram or Shinzen...
Thanks for the reply :) That makes sense that the different schools are reformations. I've always thought of these schools being driven by geography (being physically separated by continents or mountains), but the stagnation idea makes sense too. I'm sure it's complicated.
Maybe some people feel that people like Ingram are profane. Tipping sacred cows. I guess it can be fun to tip cows though :) Depending on your personality and life experiences. I suppose it's the same debate as recreational drugs vs sacred plants.
Ah, so then, would you say the Mahasi method is closer to Shinzen's method than Goenka? As someone with sensory issues, I'm really enjoying reading about Shinzen's different "ways". I think Goenka body awareness is great, and I could certainly focus more on practice than reading, but Shinzen is very interesting.
Your parents were wise in this regard. All parents mean well. All parents are just trying to make it in the world, and be survived by their children. My parents set us up to believe in absolute truth simply because that's all they knew. So who's to blame.
I think I prefer chatting on this platform than on YouTube :)
I have really enjoyed both Innovative Teacher articles.
Even if I don't have the time and space in my life to explore them all, it's very interesting and encouraging to know they're out there. These articles represent many years of you filtering through massive amounts of information. So thanks for sharing with us.
Some random thoughts from your Daniel Ingram piece:
Warning, I don't know any more about him than what you've written here (but will do some further reading for sure).
The mention of autism is very interesting to me. He seems like an almost shamanic figure. If you look at some of the features presented by autism, they sort of line up with what you'd expect from a shaman. Living outside the culture, next level knowledge about something very particular, unique sensory processing, and probably a few more :)
Maybe you could expand on this, because I don't know: have there been as many reformers in Buddhism as say Christianity? Has there ever been a Buddhist reformation or Vatican 2.0? If not, any theories as to why?
This is connected with your point about debate. When someone is fully set into a belief system (or you could even call it an architype) they are not interested in healthy debate. As you suggest, they show hostility toward other views which serves to strengthen their belief. Their anger hides their vulnerability. Like a cognitive bias.
Would it be somewhat the case that claiming to be an arhant is like claiming divinity? I can see people in the west having a difficult time understanding that concept, but wouldn't people in the east understand the claim quite differently? Do we as humans ultimately need devine or transcendent role models? We almost need to strive towards the impossible. I can see arguments from both sides. Point taken that it might be traditionalists who struggle with it the most. A lot of complex emotions involved for them. Moving past the guru model seems connected here too. Maybe the issue is that we only divinize people who have been long dead :) We can then idealize them.
You mention the value of body awareness for us westerners. Is that basically the same thing as the Mahasi method? I guess this is connected with your interest in a Goenka retreat?
I like the comment from Daniel about focusing more on practice and less on psychology (or other potential distractions). I could use that advice :)
The innovate teachers hit a sweet spot for me because:
-I survived an evangelical Christian upbringing, with years of subsequent deprogramming, so I'm leery of belief systems, dogma, etc. So I love how Shinzen is mystical or Daniel is pragmatic.
-I struggle with languages such as Pali/Sanskrit, so Shinzen and Daniel are both refreshing that way.
-I can't escape that fact that I'm a westerner (the way I escaped my upbringing), despite my concerns with the west, so bridging the best of the east and the west seems necessary for me to grow.
Jude you're so niche! Thanks for creating this space :) I hope it continues to grow :)
OK so first off you're spot on with the shamanic thing. I didn't put it in the article, but Ingram has actually done a few discussions on "powers" that are attained through meditation, like psychic stuff, but also on Magick, which is basically the western version of shamanism. He talks about putting on special ceremonial outfits and casting spells. Interesting stuff!
I'm no expert on Buddhist history but yes there have been countless reformers. The three main iterations are Therevada (study and technical knowledge), Mahayana (living and doing in the world), and Vajrayana (transmuting experience, making everything a practice). They were each reactions to and reformations of where previous traditions became stagnant.
But even within these three huge schools there are countless other schools and reformations. There are 4 schools of Tibetan Buddhism, but it just started as one (Nygma). There's Soto and Rinzai Zen, both with many subsects...
As for claiming Arhantship is like claiming divinity... yes in a way for sure (in the traditionalist context). There are many traditional Buddhist teachers who are recognized as awakened and are revered as if they are living Buddhas or living divine beings. People will line up to get blessed by them, and they will sometimes sit on thrones.
Ingram is not sitting on a throne and no one is lining up to be blessed by him. So yes it's a very different paradigm and I can see why it set people off. Ingram is saying hey this isn't anything divine, I'm a normal guy who did this. And that is very different paradigm, it brings all the revered teachers down to a "normal" level, and challenges those who would find comfort in their connection to such teachers (like a religious mindset).
I'm honestly not sure to what extent people are looked at divinely in Theravada Buddhism, but in Tibetan Buddhism it's very palpable and not just for those who've passed, many living Lamas are said to be incarnations of divine beings.
The Mahasi method is about noting sensory experience, including body awareness but not making a special focus on it. Goenka also came from Burmese Buddhism but ended up emphasizing body awareness.
And I appreciate your comment! A lot of people have religious trauma (it's almost a trending term now) in our culture. I'm one of the few that doesn't have it as my parents really didn't put any dogma or expectations on us kids. They introduced us to Buddhist ideas that we inevitably believed in, but they were sure it say "this is what the Buddhists believe but it's hard to know".
Glad you're enjoying this series as I love to share this stuff and only have a handful of friends that have any interest in it. A lot more to come, many that are very different than Ingram or Shinzen...
Thanks for the reply :) That makes sense that the different schools are reformations. I've always thought of these schools being driven by geography (being physically separated by continents or mountains), but the stagnation idea makes sense too. I'm sure it's complicated.
Maybe some people feel that people like Ingram are profane. Tipping sacred cows. I guess it can be fun to tip cows though :) Depending on your personality and life experiences. I suppose it's the same debate as recreational drugs vs sacred plants.
Ah, so then, would you say the Mahasi method is closer to Shinzen's method than Goenka? As someone with sensory issues, I'm really enjoying reading about Shinzen's different "ways". I think Goenka body awareness is great, and I could certainly focus more on practice than reading, but Shinzen is very interesting.
Your parents were wise in this regard. All parents mean well. All parents are just trying to make it in the world, and be survived by their children. My parents set us up to believe in absolute truth simply because that's all they knew. So who's to blame.
I think I prefer chatting on this platform than on YouTube :)
Wishing everyone a great day :)